Episode 06: Vicki Gordon
In this episode Producer, Director and Pioneer Vicki Gordon talks about advocacy, creating change, and the gender imbalance in the Australian music industry.
CREDITS
Produced, presented and edited by Chelsea Wilson
Transcript by Laura Ingram
VICKI GORDON was a finalist in the 2020 Telstra Business Women’s Awards and recognised as a 2019 AFR Top 100 Women of Influence for her life time commitment to addressing gender & cultural equity within the Australian Music Industry. Vicki brings a wealth of experience as a Creative Producer and Leader in Management, Corporate Sponsorship, Government Lobbying, Strategic Planning in the NFP sector, First Nations Engagement, Cultural Governance and Advocacy. She holds a Certificate of Completion in Indigenous Cultural Protocols for Business.
Known as a dynamic champion of gender & cultural equality, Vicki has been awarded a Human Rights Commendation, a Community Cultural Development Award, a Women in the Arts Fellowship and PPCA and ARIA Awards in recognition of her contribution to industry. She has worked as a Musician, Music Producer, Record Label Executive, Festival Director, Cultural Producer, Tour Manager, Music Theatre Producer, Artist Manager, Marketing Manager and Mentor.
In 1990 Vicki founded the Australian Women’s Rock Institute producing Australia’s first Aboriginal & Torres Strait Islander Women’s Contemporary Music Festival; first All Girl Rock Festival, first Training program for Female DJ’s and the first Fanzine for Female Musicians. She has been Music Manager to Indigenous singer/songwriters Emma Donovan and Ursula Yovich and as an independent record label director was integral to the success of Vanessa Amorosi’s 5x platinum debut album The Power and hit single Absolutely Everybody. As Producer & curator for the critically acclaimed First Nations Barefoot Divas, Sydney & NZ International Arts Festivals (2012) QLD Music Festival (2013), she independently toured the company to sold out houses in North America, Canada and Hawaii (2014) selling out the Hong Kong Concert Hall in 2015. She is Co-Producer for the critically acclaimed multi award winning Women’s Rock Musical Barbara & the Camp Dogs, picking up 4x Green Room Awards in 2020 and 4x Helpmann Awards in 2019 including Best Musical and Best Score. She is Founding President for the not for profit charity CiCADA International Ltd and founding Executive Director and Executive Producer for Australian Women in Music Awards.
TRANSCRIPT:
Chelsea: Vicki Gordon. Thank you so much for joining me on the podcast.
Vicki: it's great to be here. Thanks Chelsea.
Chelsea: I'd firstly, to go back to the nineties part of your career, you've had such a broad and varied career, and it was really hard to narrow down on what to talk to you about because there was just so many things I wanted to touch on, but I did really want to talk about your time with Transistor Music. You were founding director and then director of A&R and marketing and I has just been such a male dominated space for decades. So to be in A&R in the nineties is pretty amazing. I know you signed Vanessa Amorosi and worked on her debut album ‘The Power’. That was a huge album. It was one of my brother's favorite albums and I heard it so much as a teenager, blaring from his room while he was [singing] “absolutely everybody” the top of his lungs. What was it like working on that record for you? Did you know it was going to be such a huge success?
Vicki: Oh, look, you can't really predict success at all. But what we did know, and what I certainly was very clear about was the talent of Vanessa Amorosi and her extraordinary creativity, her remarkable voice, and just her, her talent at such a young age was just unprecedented, I think, in this country. Transistor music was an independent record label, so we didn't have the big budgets that the majors did. And we were working on very minimal budgets, but we were so committed to doing the best we could for Vanessa. Obviously the songs, the production, everything that went along with that album, and all of her singles from that album, were just a testament to her, but also to the team that was transistor music at the time.
Chelsea: It was such an incredible record and her voice was, and still is just so distinct. The first time I saw her live was the tour was Vanessa Amorosi, Vika & Linda and Kate Ceberano. And as a teenager it was just incredible to see this lineup of women, all performing their own music and different kinds of covers. And Vanessa's voice was just so incredible. And I remember specifically The Power album cover art, I think Pierre Baroni took that picture. She's standing on the cover with the boxing gloves and quite a baggy kind of top and it sort of makes me think now it's sort of that what Billie Eilish is doing now, but Vanessa Amorosi was doing it, over 20 years ago. There were so many really sexualized releases in the nineties, but this was really, really different. Was that something that Vanessa really wanted to do and how she wanted to present herself?
Vicki: Vanessa was and is so unique in so many ways. As an independent record label executive, and also as a feminist, my politics have always informed how I work in the music business and in particular, in relation to my commitment to the artists that I've represented. Both as a label executive and as an artist manager. So I was very committed to ensuring that Vanessa was supported to be as authentic as possible. And it was a really important to me and to Vanessa not to impose any manipulated, sexualized imaging on her at that time. And these were decisions that were very deliberate in terms of her marketing and in terms of supporting her to be as true to herself as she possibly could be, which was an unusual stand for a label to take with an artist. But as time has gone on and as I look back on the success of Vanessa, it was her uncompromised uniqueness and individuality that in some ways really helped to build her profile and influenced her success. But I also emphasize that the power of putting creative control into the hands of artists themselves. And that's a very, very important thing I think that Vanessa was ahead of her time but artists are always ahead of their time. That that's what artists are.
I think that traditionally the larger labels have always tried to squeeze them back, squeeze artists back into being what they are not. I've seen this happen for many, many, many years and heard many artists talk about how destructive that can actually be. So, always empower the artists I say.
Chelsea: She must've been so young at the time, she was a teenager.
Vicki: She was 15 when we signed her, she was 15 and it's really important to remember that because she was just so young and her talent was just extraordinary and she's gone on to do incredible things. And, and ironically now is back working independently, which is fantastic.
Chelsea: So good. So she really kind of broke through, in that pre-internet era, pre-social media. I think social media is just had such a huge role now in breaking an artist and in artists marketing and this whole idea of an artist as “a brand”, which I feel like we didn't really refer to artists as brands beforehand, but now it's all “your brand” and “your language” and “your image”. It's created a new pressure on artists, not just to keep up with constantly posting about everything online, which is just a huge, additional demand on an already really busy workload. But now there's this other kind of additional pressures around body image. Do you think it's exacerbated an existing expectation that women should look a certain way? Or do you think there was always pressure on, on female artists in terms of body image?
Vicki: I think there's always been pressure on female artists in terms of body image. And I'd also say that I think there's been a double standard in the music industry for as long as I've been in the industry for both for men and women. But what I do feel confident about is that I think that a lot of younger women these days are really on top of this. I know that the pressures are very real, but I think a lot of women are really getting on top of all of this.
What I would say to younger women is, is to resist this impulse, to be the same. What is going to make what is going to make artists stand out from the crowd when they’re young? The thing that maybe they get questioned about, or the things that perhaps are teased about, is very likely to be the thing that is actually going to be their point of difference, that will actually be their success. So I think it's very important (and I reiterate this and I've maintained this my in my whole career) is to encourage young women to be profoundly original and true to themselves.
Chelsea: Yeah, I love that! Those stories of professional actors or musicians who mentioned that point around the point of difference or the thing they were bullied for.
I think Julia Roberts was always bullied at school for her lips or that she had fish lips or something. And you know, when you think of Julia Roberts, you just think of that amazing, beautiful smile! I think that's such a important point to remember is about individuality. Often the singers that really make it (or any artist regardless of instrument, but particularly singers) is that unique vocal quality that's just your own. You know, you think of Macy Gray, Tina arena, or Celine Dion. I mean, their voices are so them, there's only one Norah Jones, you know, so that's a real strength. And I feel like somehow with social media that imagery can become quite homogenized and everybody's going for this very similar look and I think that's what was so refreshing about Billie Eilish and I felt the same about Vanessa Amrossi. So I think she really was such a pioneer and the work that you did with her was ahead of its time and still stands strong.
Chelsea: I really would love to chat to you about senior leadership and being a senior leader in the Australian music industry. There's so many women who work in arts administration in the music industry, but finding women at the CEO level, You know, it can be really hard. In Australia only 17% of CEOs are female, so we've still got a long way to go. You're the first female ARIA Board director, and after your term, I think there was a 19 year gap or something until there was another women on the board. What was your experience like on the board and why do you think it took so long?
Vicki: There was one woman prior to me. I'm not sure what year she was on the board, but I was the first woman voted onto the area board as a director in my own right in 2002 and I was there representing the Independents . So it was an amazing achievement and an extraordinary opportunity. At that time, women were simply not a priority for the ARIA board and the music industry at that time, of course as you will recall, was called a boy's club for very good reason. And this is evident and in terms of how long it's taken for other women to join the ARIA board. The culture of ARIA was such that you actually couldn't be a board director unless you ran a record label. And of course, no women or very few women other than perhaps Fifa Riccobonno from Albert's we're running record labels.
So the change we saw on the area board in 2019 was I believe a direct result of the ‘Skipping A Beat’ research report that we initiated and obviously all of the other great, great work that's been done by Ange McCormick and The Hack, et cetera, et cetera. Really it was that research and it was then obviously the emergence of the Australian Women in Music Awards, which really shamed ARIA into to finally acting.
Chelsea: (laughing) Whatever works!
Vicki: And it's funny because now they're saying, “Look we've changed and we've ticked that box”, but I mean, really how naive do they think that we women are? Do they think we don't know and can’t recognize an organization that only changes when it's forced to? Do they think we don't know and recognize that unless there is real will and real commitment and real understanding that women have a right to half of the resources, you know, nothing really is going to change until that occurs.
Chelsea: Yeah, I completely agree. It's just a kind of virtual virtue signaling action to go. “Oh, okay, it's made very clear that we have no women, we'll just chuck some women on, cool tick, tick job done.” What's it going to take to have a look at the broader context and think about what kind of cultural changes need to happen, so the issue is that women aren't running labels, women aren't owning labels. So what can we do about that? Do you think, are there conversations at that ARIA level about how to support that to happen? I mean, why do you think women aren’t owning and running record labels?
Vicki: Well, you know, I think the industry can no longer call out equality with words and aspirations. It's up to all of us, those of us that are in privileged positions of power, to lead with action and conviction. And that's really, that's a really big thing that's missing in our industry: action and conviction.
Chelsea: What do you think we need to change before we can see more women in CEO roles?
Vicki: I think women need to be more strategic and determined. And I also think they need to gather around themselves great artists and other people who support them. I think that's really important. And I think that this new generation of women coming through the industry need to keep up the pressure and refuse to tolerate what has been a mono-male music culture for such a long time.
C: I really loved that “Skipping The Beat” research. That report I have found so incredibly useful over the last few years. I have quoted that research in so many proposals and I have put it forward to other people in workplaces. And so a huge thank you to you and everybody behind putting that together. And having that data and statistics does make such a difference and we can see the results right there, that by doing the research and putting forward a proposal and putting forward those statistics right there in front of us, that it can inspire and, really make change. Another survey that came out is the Music Victoria ‘Women in Music’ survey from a few years ago and this one kind of highlighted confidence as an issue for women and confidence seems to be something that is a recurring theme and is apparently holding women back from full participation in the music industry. Do you think that this is a genuine thing that women have a lack of confidence or do you think confidence is kind of the scapegoat and what we're blaming for the gender imbalance?
Vicki: The idea of confidence and of course this issue of self-esteem is something that I've been talking about for years. And self-esteem is something that really impacts on all of us, but especially women. Aver the years, I've learned that self-esteem and confidence is everything when it comes to being able to move yourself forward in your own life. And lacking it can cripple your capacity to make positive choices and informed decisions with a sense of purpose, which is really, really important in the music industry, but in terms of senior positions and decision-making positions, women can lack confidence because they need to be given opportunity to learn how to be bold and strategic. To be backed-in when they make mistakes or have failures and to learn how to turn that around, to succeed and without being given those opportunities, which men are forever being given women are always going to be held back. And I think that sometimes women make. You can make a mistake or an error that will haunt them for far too long.
I think this is something that as women we punish ourselves and flagellate ourselves. But I think even more than confidence, I think what women need in the music industry more than confidence is resilience and courage.
Chelsea: Such a good point. I think learning to kind of process failures and then just move on to the next thing, you know, and have that resilience is, you know, such an important skill. How can we develop that skill? How do you think we can build up our kind of confidence and belief in ourselves?
Vicki: It's a complex question because we're all so different and we've all come from such different places. Our life experiences are all so very different. And every day, particularly now, everyday for so many of us is such a struggle, but we have to find something in our hearts and ourselves to continue to believe in ourselves. And like I said, I think that women really do need to find ways to maintain support for one another. I say this a lot: I think that women underestimate the amount of confidence and strength they can give to one another, and I think we need to see far, far more of that in our industry.
Chelsea: I think so too and I think it's starting to happen. I feel like more and more, you know, The Women in Music Awards, the film ‘Her Sound Her Story’ etc, have just been really helpful for opening that conversation that I think some women weren't having or felt that they couldn't have.
Throughout your career you've been such a pioneer and advocate for women in the music industry. Creating new programs, working with artists, the awards, championing first nation artists. I mean, it's huge. Can you tell me what some of your career highlights have been?
Vicki: Oh when I established the Australian Women's Rock Institute in the early nineties, I produced Australia's first Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander women's contemporary music festival. And that was, that was extraordinary. And that involved artists, such as the late Ruby Hunter, Leah Purcell, Christina Anu, The Mill Sisters, The Pearl Sisters from Broome and it was incredible. That was 1994. I also produced and created the first training program for female DJs, which I was really, really proud of too. That was way, way ahead of any conversations really about women working in technical or production areas.
A lot of the work that I've done that I'm really proud of does involve first nations. I, myself am New Zealand Maori, so I have deep connections to my own culture, but the other projects have really been to do with some of the music theater work that I've done such as Barefoot Divas, which was six first nations women from Australia, New Zealand and PNG. And touring that group of women to North America and selling out the Hong Kong concert hall in 2015 and doing that independently. But the beautiful thing about Barefoot Divas was that these were six first nations women singing six-part harmonies in each other's languages.
Chelsea: Just got goosebumps, so good.
Vicki: The show called ‘Walk a Mile in My Shoes’ and was written by Alana Valentine and it was absolutely extraordinary. It was groundbreaking at the time, just in terms of putting all of those cultures and that beauty, that musical extraordinary in us together.
And of course, Vanessa Amorosi. Working with her really early on was an amazing opportunity and a gift, but the other project that I'm really proud of as a first nations Rock Musical called Barbara and The Camp Dogs with the extraordinary Ursula Yovich. Again written by Alana Valentine & Ursula Yovich, but that project we picked up four Green Room Awards and four Helpmann Awards last year including Best Musical, so that's been a really fabulous and extraordinary journey because that story and that production was a commitment to not only putting women's stories on stage, not only putting first nations women's stories on stage with an all-girl rock band, but basically empowering women to the main stage and the success of that project is head to date has been really extraordinary.
And course Australian Women in Music Awards, trying to keep the industry accountable, that an ongoing commitment and struggle.
Chelsea: Did you pause and celebrate these career moments? I mean I know in the music industry, we're often just going from one project to the next, and same in the arts. It's this tour, it's this production, we're now in pre-production! Did you take time to take stock or is it just one thing to the next?
Vicki: Well, interestingly with this COVID world that we're now living in, I've been forced to stop for the first time in my career, actually. And that's been really amazing and very positive for me because I've just been working like a warrior for years. But I would say is that the best reward from all of the things that I've done and all of the work that I've done has been that I've retained the friendships and the relationships with a lot of these women in particular and a lot of these artists that I've worked with over the years. Through the Momen's Rock Institute, through all of the projects that we've just talked about. I'm often contacted by younger women that I've worked with and they stay in touch with me, and often when they're rising through the ranks, I can see the influences of some of the work that I've done. A friend of mine has actually called them my Secret Female Army of Influence, which is really wonderful to get to a point in your life where you do have so many committed women supporting you. It's very humbling. I really have believed in the long game and I've played the long game my entire career. I think that's been a real asset. It's enabled me to work with integrity and loyalty and that is a much better legacy to have than anything else I could imagine.
Chelsea: I love that: integrity and loyalty. Let's just put that up on the mantle piece. Billboards! Sounds so basic, and it is! If, if only we were seeing more of that on a kind of worldwide level, I think we've been in a bit of a different situation.
In terms of the COVID isolation experience, it's kind of been this handbrake and it's forced a lot of us to have this break that we haven't had. Have you learned something about yourself, reflections or things that have made you contemplate the next steps?
Vicki: I've spent a lot of my career doing a lot of work in Arnhem Land in the Northern Territory with my First Nations, brothers and sisters. And the one thing I've learned from that work has been the importance of sitting still. And actually just taking time to reflect on your life and your relationships and your family and your achievements and all those things in life that are important and in some ways I think that's, you know, for many of us been the lesson of COVID too, that we've been forced to stop, to listen to the birds, to go for walks (if we're able to, if we're not on lockdown in Melbourne). I've reconnected really strongly with nature and I love the Bush and I love this Australian country. I love birds and I love cooking, and I know I'm doing all those sorts of things that bring me joy. And most importantly, I think those lessons are lessons I've been learning and continue to learn. Like I said, from my first nations relationships, but also I think that's been a gift.
Chelsea: what do you think some of the biggest challenges of your career have been?
Vicki: The biggest challenges in my career are the people who think that change happens because society somehow just holds hands and agrees that change is necessary. Change only happens when individuals rally the community behind them and fight and work for that change. The biggest challenges are the people who believe that talent will out and women who are good at their job will get through. That success is based on merit and social advocacy is not necessary. Change doesn't just roll out on the wheels of inevitability and it comes through continuous struggle. People who believe that change is inevitable, I don't believe have you ever worked for change. Otherwise they would not come with that position. They don't know that change always threatens those in power, and those people often work to stop it. They don't know that people in power will select individuals to promote so they can point to them as change when they really are just exceptions. And I think one of the biggest disappointments of my career is the women who say “there is no systemic sexism”, the people say “there is no systemic racism” and the people who say that “there is no real barrier if you have the talent”. That's just not true, and that never was and it still isn't.
Chelsea: Absolutely this whole idea that change just happens and it's just a car that's going to wheel into town and it's just all merry is so incorrect. There's a book by Helen Lewis ‘A History of 11 Feminist Fights’ that really goes into detail around the suffragettes and how they work considered terrorists and how they literally went and bombed things and blew things up. And now we kind of go “Oh, of course, you know, women have the right to vote. I mean, of course that's just a no-brainer!” but you know, a hundred and so years ago, this was something where change only happened when there was real action happening. Which brings me to chatting to you about The Australian Women in Music Awards. I mean, this is such an interesting time when the awards were launched, when so many other music award programs, such as the Grammys and the New Zealand Music Awards removed the best female or best male award categories with this idea around, you know, removing categories that are gender specific to create a more inclusive Industry in terms of gender. What are your thoughts on that? And how did you respond to the criticism around the establishment of the awards?
Vicki: Well, I, I think the people who say that they believe removing the gender-based awards creates a more gender inclusive industry are telling themselves that there's a level playing field in the industry now. They want to believe it so they say “let's abolish the best female or male awards and make it just about the best musician”. And, you know and I know that that is just incredibly naive. I don't think we are in that world no matter how much we would like to believe that we are.
If we just go back to the ‘Skipping A Beat’ research, and we just look at the research papers. There's very few of them actually, because the area of women working in contemporary music is one of the least researched areas of the art, but the research and the statistics that we do have is what we need to keep focusing on.
In relation to the Grammys, they are a more genre specific than the AWMA’s (Australian Women in Music Awards) and they are extremely well-funded. The Grammys are also very proactive in their advocacy to support black music, Filipino music, and Trans music, for example. There are individual executives on the Grammy board and Grammy committee who are specifically dedicated to diversity and inclusion to people and to culture. And we've simply not seen that level of leadership or activism in the Australian music industry. And in fact just last week we watched the ARIA awards called out again by Sampa the Great for their lack of inclusivity. And as I was saying earlier, you only need to research the stats from the Skipping a Beat report and again, the great work by Ange McCormick and Triple J's The Hack to see how much work that we actually have to do. So that's what I think on a philosophical level and on a practical level, I just think, well, are you kidding? Why would you give out one award when you can give out two?
Chelsea: So, did you deal with negative feedback or criticism around the establishment of the awards? How did you deal with that?
Vicki: Yes, of course. That's inevitable when you are creating change, criticism is part of the territory and you have to suit up for it. But what's worse than the negative feedback and the criticism, I think, is the indifference of some of the major players. I have never had the kind of funding that could really assist us to make the women's awards create real change. If it wasn't for the massively female led Queensland government, we wouldn't even have the AWMA’s. The New South Wales government, the industry bodies, all of the people who could have assisted me. They don't criticize you publicly, they just don't support you with money or presence. And they wait for you to fail and fade from lack of attention. What they have underestimated though, is the huge grassroots community support that the women's awards has and continues to mobilize. And the best answer to criticism is to defy the odds and keep going. And also to keep an open eye. I need to keep an open mind. It's very important that we all keep an open mind because if those industry bodies suddenly want to jump on board with funding and help support the AWMA’s, that would be really great. I've got a very short-term memory.
Chelsea: (laughing) Yes and I want to say a huge,thank you and congratulations on establishing the awards. You know, I think it's incredibly important and people feel very funny or conflicted about awards in general, but I just kind of think that any sort of attention we can shine on the incredible people making music or behind the scenes, is helpful to our music culture overall, and consumers pay attention to this. You know, when people are at the wine store, they see the wine with the gold stickers on the front, you know, or in a bookstore, they see bestsellers list’s or this was in Oprah's book club. You know, those things make a difference. So to be nominated for an award to be, have your work acknowledged by industries, potentially life changing and can make huge career impacts for the women nominated. And this is the kind of acknowledgement that they're not getting elsewhere. So I can only see it as an incredibly positive and uplifting awards program.
Vicki: Yes, I think it's important to say about the women's awards: our commitment is to make visible the achievements and excellence of women working across all areas of industry. And it's very, very important that we acknowledge and respect and value the contributions of women. That is really the main reason and purpose for the AWMA’s to exist. And we're not just talking about singer-songwriters, we're talking about producers, engineers, tour managers, roadies, educators, classical artists, photographers, filmmakers, et cetera, et cetera. And of course, One of the things that I'm very, very passionate about is our commitment to commemorate our elders and to remember and commemorate those women that have come before us to make sure that their contributions are acknowledged and that their value is also celebrated.
Chelsea: Yeah, I think that's so important and so often stories are forgotten. And we just move on to the next thing. I was really happy that there was a Helen Reddy movie made. An incredible legacy, an incredible contribution to music. But there's so many other artists like Kerrie Biddel who was just really forgotten and when she passed away a few years ago and there was this tiny thing in the paper. And I thought this was a woman who contributed so much to Jazz in Australia and had this huge moment, you know, they weren't called ARIA’s then they were called something else, but she won a couple of them and she had a huge Vegas residency and completely unknown. And same with Wilmer Redding, so I'm so glad that there's acknowledgment there for Wilmer and for Georgia Lee and for these incredible pioneers who really paved the way. And speaking about really important Australian musicians, Tina Arena, she called out commercial radio in her ARIA Hall of Fame acceptance speech a few years ago. I don't know if you caught that, but she talks about it at BIGSOUND as well in her keynote speech about how Paul Kelly and other male artists, can get older and still get booked and still get this acknowledgement. And they're kind of the older you get, the more revered you get, you know, like Nick Cave, what a genius Leonard Cohen, what a genius. I'm not saying they're not a genius, but we're not talking about Kylie or we're not talking about J.Lo in that sort of same light and they're around the same age, but they don't get that sort of similar acknowledgement for their art. More the conversations around how they look. Tina Arena called out commercial radio for not playing women over 40 years of age on air. I mean, do you think the Australian music industry has an issue with, with ageism that is disadvantaging women?
Vicki: Yes. It's a huge issue. And I mean, I can't tell you how many women I've worked with and even a young women who are afraid that they will not have a career past the age of 23. You know they're afraid of that. And that is not even a question that male artists ever even have to consider. But in truth, I don't think this is limited to women in the music industry. And dare I say it, it's a major issue for women across all areas of the arts. And I think Australia just really needs to grow up and have pride in its established artists and, you know, mature like a good Australian wine.
Chelsea: I mean, speaking of radio, there's been a lot of conversations around Australian radio quotas. Do you have any thoughts on that? Do you think quotas are a good idea?
Vicki: I think quota’s are a great idea. They become necessary when things don't shift in the way that they should. I think the extraordinary amount of talent in this country in the arts is astounding and what the quotas can do is basically just ensure that we're hearing more Australian artists and that we're developing more local talent and that we are holding that talent up for the rest of the world to see. And I think that that is very, very important for the music industry.
Chelsea: Yeah, it seems that the whole music industry is really United on this one topic. There's a lot of things that, you know, people in the music industry might not agree with, but I think we all agree that having more Australian music on radio would make a huge difference and is hugely important. But why do you think commercial radio don't seem to be agreeing with us?
Vicki: I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I mean, I guess that's a conversation you'd have to have with commercial radio. Uh, I don't really understand it. I think it's pretty obvious and very clear that that the industry would only benefit from more Australian artists on radio. So I'm not quite sure where they're coming from.
Chelsea: Yeah me neither. I went to a panel at BIGSOUND last year, where there was one of the fellows who programs… I can't remember what stations called. It's kind of like the triple M but of Brisbane…And I said to him, “what's going on culturally within commercial radio, where it seems to be not a priority or not kind of cool.” And he really couldn't answer it either. And there's been no evidence that increasing Australian music on radio has any effect on business at all. So you can't really blame, (or say) it affects the advertisers or the shareholders because it doesn't. And in terms of playing women on air, also they don't seem to really have an answer for that one either.
Vicki: No. That just falls into another statistic again, where women are not as represented across the board as they should be, and that's just something else we can add to the, to the long list that we have (laughing).
Chelsea: Add to the long list (laughing) Speaking of that list, they’re saying that around 98% of all music recordings are made by men, in studios owned by men, engineered by men, most CEOs are men, radio airplays male skewed, the people choosing the playlist for radio are men, and only 10% of APRA’s annual payout is going to female writers. So yeah, I'm really not sure where anyone can get this idea that there is already a gender balance. It's kind of staggering that somebody can hear those stats and be so compartmentalized in their mind to still believe that there is gender balance because they hear some Beyonce on the radio doesn't mean were anywhere near a gender balance. It's kind of astounding. What do you think we can do on an individual level to try and make a difference? Because reading all those statistics sounds really depressing, but we can make change and change is happening and it does happen. So what can we do is as individuals in this scene? It's not just “women's work” for all the listeners, regardless of your gender, there is something we can all do to try and make a difference.
Vicki: Well in answer to your initial statement. You know, those that believe that we've reached equity. First of all, I’d be keen to see proof of where we have achieved gender parity, because it just seems to be an absolute furphy. But I also think it is human nature to want the discrimination to be over and it's human nature to get tired of hearing the same old story stories about an inequality It's human nature to get frustrated that it never changes and we all want to say “hooray it's done” but it's not. And that's why we need to keep looking at the statistics and updating the evidence and keep going. And as I keep saying, we all need to respect the value of women's contribution to society and remain determined to ensure women's contributions are given agency to create business and to lead change and to influence culture.
You raised something earlier just about the federal government and Australian women received the vote in 1902. First nations women had to wait until 1962 for the same right. And to this day we've never achieved gender equality in our federal government. And just seven years ago, in 2013, our federal Minister for Women was a man.
So, you know, I think the Australian music industry really, after all does reflect our greater society. And I think that this is a great example of how much work we have to do. But what I would say is I think the myth that I'd really like to bust, around women and music and around inequality is to say that this is not about special treatment. I think it's very important that we say gender equity and cultural equity is not about special treatment. It is not about hating men. Some of AWMA’s biggest supporters are men. It's not about whining and victim mentality. It is about this: The Australian music industry will be better when women are empowered in all areas of the industry, because men don't have a lock on innovative, thinking, entrepreneurial ideas, bold vision, courageous distribution, or anything at all. The Australian music industry will be better when women have more power, because half of the brain's trust of this nation is women. We are going into a tough, challenging future, and it's time to stop benching half of the population. Give us a chance and we may just have the kind of future that we all want to see in the Australian music industry.
Chelsea: Brilliant answer Vicki. Love that. This is so much work from an emotional labor point of view for women to be trying to maintain their personal relationships, have a career, and be constantly asked questions, “what's it like to be a female drummer? What's it like to be a female producer?” This is exhausting and you've done all this incredible work in advocacy in this space. How do you look after yourself and how do you advise other women that really do want to make change and see change, but are also exhausted by it. How can we look after ourselves so we don't burn out?
Vicki: Well, it's a very good question. In terms of looking after ourselves, I have enormous faith in the possibility of creating change, and not just for changes sake, but in the importance of creating a better world for women and girls, it's something I've been committed to my entire life. And it's something I have to do. It's my life's work. I'm very clear about it. I have a fantastic partner who is extremely supportive of the work that I do and a fantastic family, when I get to see them. For me really important that I focus a lot when I'm in what I call my “warrior mode” on the big picture. But also, when I'm not in that mode, try and focus on the beauty of the world, what it is that I love about being alive. What is it that I love about the Australian Bush? What is it that I love about food and wine and the people that I love in my life? I mean, it's really important to keep a perspective on those smaller, integral things that feed your spirit and your soul whilst at the same time, going out into the world to try and make a difference. I do genuinely believe that as individuals, we are all here to make a difference. We all have a mission in our lives. Some of us know that from a really early age and some of us are still trying to find that out, but I knew what my mission was from the age of eight years old. And I've just stuck to it my entire life.
